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riverarl
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Volunteers and You: A Suggestion

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed this, but let's pause for a second and look at the splash screens from this project... Go ahead, take a look at them.

Done? Notice how Americans and Europeans are listed as the highest energy consumers. Naturally this is a fact, but they present this as if it was a bad thing. crying So let's look at this scenario as a whole:

Hundreds of thousands of people (predominately American and European) are donating their computer processing power (note that computers require energy) for an energy project that advertises that we are bad for using so much energy per capita. confused Should I just turn off my computers then and not work on these projects? This is not a good way to build a relationship between a volunteer and a project needing help. That's like having a flat tire and scolding the people who come to replace your tire because they're wasting rubber! sad

Normally I don't discuss projects on forums, or anything for that matter. I prefer to just quietly volunteer, but this is something I couldn't help but point out. I'll stop ranting now. whistling
[Jan 14, 2011 2:49:03 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Hypernova
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Re: Volunteers and You: A Suggestion

Normally I don't discuss projects on forums, or anything for that matter. I prefer to just quietly volunteer, but this is something I couldn't help but point out. I'll stop ranting now.


Welcome to the forum riverarl.
Your opinion whatever it is does matter. You are free to stay silent but exchanging ideas and opinions makes things more interesting.

You made a point, as with the CEP one could have the impression that we are in an absurd loop.
But if we look at the evolution of processors and hardware that we use the energy consumption per computing time goes down drastically at each generation. The latest Sandy-Bridge evolution is a good example.
We must also look at the leverage factor. The CEP project does address issues that can have an impact on solar cells manufacturing costs and in this way bring down the $/kW ratio, and it can also with the right material improve efficiency. An improvement in solar cell technology does scale on a huge factor. This means that yes you will consume a given amount of energy to crunch, but you may end up sparing a much bigger amount with better technology.
Seen that way crunching for CEP is worth taking the risk. wink
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Hypernova at Jan 14, 2011 3:12:45 PM]
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sk..
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Re: Volunteers and You: A Suggestion

Good point, advice comes from discussion and experience. If for example someone is encouraged to update their system to a Sandy-Bridge based computer, while they may have to fork out a bit, if they sell their old system over time the difference in running costs would outweigh their initial expense. At the same time they would be contributing more to the science.

If nobody bothered to post this information in the forums, hundreds or thousands of people would not be motivated to buy more energy efficient systems that do more work.

riverarl, by contributing to the science you are helping to develope clean energy materials that will hopefully improve the situation presented .
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Former Member
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Re: Volunteers and You: A Suggestion

Hi everybody,
this is an interesting and also complicated issue but you already made a couple of very important points.

We certainly encourage everybody to not waste electricity - the less energy we consume the less we have to replace with renewables. It is quite depressing how much energy mankind plain-and-simply wastes without any benefit, and how much smaller our problems would be if we could only cut this excess. But that is a different story...
However, it leads to the question of whether running WCG and CEP2 is a waste or not, which is a fair question. There is no doubt that it costs additional electricity compared to just switching your computer off.

You already made the '€˜investment' argument, i.e., we spend energy today to support research, which will hopefully help in the design of new photovoltaics, which will in turn produce energy in the future (with a return greater than the initial investment). You actually make the same argument when you buy, e.g., a solar panel which has an upfront cost in terms of production, purchase, and installation, but which is recovered over time with some surplus.

One can also make the argument that using WCG as a resource for this research is economical and ecological because the hardware already exists (and doesn't need to be built and purchased) and DC avoids the cooling and power supply issues of cluster computing.

This leads to perhaps the most powerful argument: If you buy a computer it already represents a substantial investment in terms of money, resources, material/production, etc.! The entire time it is not used is a big waste! In this sense the WCG is a way to optimize the utilization and return on this investment.

So there are good arguments for and against running WCG vs switching your computer off, and everyone has to decide for themselves. We are obviously somewhat biased and hope that a lot of people stick with our project biggrin.

Best wishes from

Your Harvard CEP team


P.S. The question is much easier for people who never switch their computers off (e.g., in the office). Modern computers use 60% more power under full load vs idling, i.e., while doing something useful vs doing nothing at all. We would say (considering the points discussed above) that CEP2 is worth it.
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Viktors
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Re: Volunteers and You: A Suggestion

We don't ask or expect anyone to keep their computers running more than they would otherwise normally run them. Furthermore, World Community Grid defaults the CPU usage to considerably less than 100% to keep the computer from significantly increasing energy consumption (this setting can be further adjusted by the member). We have measured that for at least some laptop computers, this amounts to only 3 watts extra power on top of about 50 watts of power consumed if the computer is idle. That 3 extra watts, if running continuously for a year, amounts to less than one US dollar of electricity for the year. The green idea here is that instead of wasting 50 watts having the computer on, a few extra watts makes all of that energy put to good use helping humanity and the world. Few charitable projects cost so little to generate such good benefits. If some people want to donate more by leaving their computers on longer or setting the contribution to a higher CPU utilization, that is their choice as with any donation. And we do appreciate and thank all members for their contributions to the projects we run here.
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noderaser
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Re: Volunteers and You: A Suggestion

Except for my DVR, my computers are only on when I am using them... I know that's not the same as some of the people who run theirs 24/7 in the point/badge race, but I think that general users' computers are working more efficiently with a full CPU load even though they may consume a little more energy while doing so. However, the extra couple of watts required to do this grid computing work must surely be less than that required for a dedicated cluster of similar capacity in a computing facility somewhere. At the very least, it's a lot cheaper than the hardware to assemble such a cluster or rent time on one that already exists.

There is one user of CEP2 here that made a recent post about his cluster, which is entirely solar-powered... I think that's pretty darn cool; if I had the disposable income to do such a thing, I would probably as well.
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Former Member
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Re: Volunteers and You: A Suggestion

Here's another way to look at it. People buy generators 'just in case' the power goes out. How much does that generator cost them? I bet they never recover the cost of it for the electricity it produces when you take into consideration fuel and all that. BUT....

Lets throw a hurricane at you, your power is out for a week. How much is having electricity worth to you now? Hot showers, being able to cook your food, sterilize water? How about the 500 dollars of meat in your freezer which is NOT spoiled because you have electricity?

You paid a bit up front in hopes of a big return in the long run. Everything costs money, R and D is not cheap for anything.

What if a breakthrough was made that could save us 100 megawatts a year. What if we used 4 megawatts of 'extra' power to make this discovery? Is it worth it now? What if instead of making this break through in 2 years it took 8 because nobody wanted to run their computers above idle? How much energy did we waste now, because we didn't want to use a little up front?

What if drug companies decided not to do all the research for new medicines because they didn't want to waste the extra electricity? What medicines and cures would we be without now?

Walking out of a room with the lights burning all day and nobody in there is a waste of electricity. Using the power to help science and more importantly humanity, is not a waste. My opinion here.

In my case running it actually helps. I have lizards, bearded dragons actually. (well others too but back to the point) Their heating lamps and pads was running me a good 30 to 60 a month in electricity. Their cage is on a stand thing sort of, with room underneath. I put my computers under there and enclose it on 3 sides with plastic. The haat from the computers rise, through the glass bottom, into the sand in the bottom of the cage and they have a belly warmer now and I do not have to run the hot pads / heat lamps. The extra maybe 3 dollars a month I spend keeping my computers revved up on projects is saving me 30 or more in heating costs for the critters.

However to play devils advocate, a high end rig, with a high end vid card, from zero load to full load on a multi core cpu and the vid, yes you can burn 300 extra watts easy. WCG is not bad at all with just CPU processing but when you start running a GPU at full bore, like with the milky way project, the watts can fly.

Just my 2 cents.

Aaron
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Capn John
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confused Re: Volunteers and You: A Suggestion

I have been crunching for three projects since late in 2010: CEP2 and C4CW since November and Malaria Control since September. Since I began I have been convinced, with minor reservations, of the utility of these three projects which outrank others in their potential return to humanity. Based on my being convinced to contribute, I have significantly upgraded my computer hardware. I am a retired accountant and my 42 years experience is now telling me to perform a post implementation review for all three projects. Therefore, over the next while, I will be looking for hard evidence of the results flowing from my hardware investment as well as electricity consumption.

I live on Ontario, Canada where electricity is generated by Nuclear, Fossil, and Water Power - roughly a third each. Windmills and biomass are very minor sources at present.
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sk..
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Re: Volunteers and You: A Suggestion

This project narrows down materials that could be used in solar panel design. It's a long way from a replacement fossil fuel power plant.
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martianmoons
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Re: Volunteers and You: A Suggestion

And this fundamental research may take years before someone decides to commercialize it. The development timing may have to do with the cost of fossil fuels, too. If fossil fuels remain too cheap, then there may not be an immediate incentive to create alternatives that may be more costly, unless political action takes place to provide such an incentive. Just my 2 cents! ;)
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