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adriverhoef
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Re: FC Language United

Why is Dutch so difficult? Well, it shouldn't be that hard, 'cause it's the native language of 23 million people in the European Union devilish , but even if you are Dutch you will be making lingual mistakes. sad biggrin

Let's have a look at Dutch and its challenges.

1) We have 15 open sounds!
bal, baal, lek, leek, vis, vies, rok, rook, stug, stuur, vijl/veil, gauw/oud, leuk, uit, boek. That is much more than in most languages.

2) The g is in most countries the g of goal and not like our soft and hard g.

3) The compound verbs and their conjugations.
To agree: 'het ergens mee eens zijn'. I agree: 'Ik ben het ermee eens'. To matter: 'ertoe doen'. It doesn't matter: 'Het doet er niet toe'.

4) The sentence structure (word sequence). This depends on the conjunction, which is usually not the case in other languages.
'Ik kan niet komen, want mijn fiets is kapot' (I cannot go for my bike is broken).
'Ik kan niet komen, OMDAT mijn fiets kapot is' (I cannot go BECAUSE my bike is broken).

5) Words like 'er', 'toch' and 'maar'. We use the word 'er' in so many sentences, while it has little meaning.
'Heb je eraan gedacht dat er geen bier meer is?' ("Did it cross your mind that there is no beer left?").
'Je kunt er maar beter niet naartoe gaan, toch?' ("You better not go there, right?")
'Ik ga toch!' ("I'm going!")

6) Standing / lying / sitting (staan / liggen / zitten).
There is a stain on the table: 'Er zit een vlek op de tafel'. (zitten = to sit)
There is a glass on the table: 'Er staat een glas op de tafel'. (staan = to stand)
There is a book on the table: 'Er ligt een boek op de tafel'. (liggen = to lie) (uhm ... liegen = to (tell a) lie)

7) The articles 'de' / 'het'
In English it is always THE.
You just have to learn whether you should use 'de' or 'het'.

8) No clear rules for use of present/future tense.
We will use the present tense for the future tense: 'Ik kom morgen' (I will come by tomorrow.)
We can even use the past for something that hasn't happened yet: 'Kwam je nu morgen of overmorgen?' ("Did you come tomorrow or the day after?")

9) Expressions.
Dutch suffers from expressions, there are lots. Talking about superfluous ... ('Appeltje, eitje' ("little apple, little egg") = easypeasy) when there is already 'Eitje!' (Easy!)

10) The change of sounds in the conjugation of a verb.
Komen (to come) - Ik kom (not "Ik koom")
Dromen (to dream) - Ik droom (not "Ik drom")
You just have to learn this.
[Mar 27, 2018 4:00:44 PM]   Link   Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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Re: FC Language United

Idioms-with-Dutch-in-them installment
- onwaarschijnlijk but there might be one you didn’t know
min of meer zachtjes op het spoor van een ezelsbruggetje naar Rotterdam?
It’s a very proud zeemeermin who announces that she understood every single word
Each and every one. And it was a complete sentence cool
The pride fades a bit because I think I wrote ’meer en min’ when I wanted to write ’min of meer’ somewhere over the ocean … forgot when, forgot where, but I better get a grip on it. It’s a very useful expression. ’Min of meer’. I’ll mumble it to myself for the rest of the day, and hope to hear you mumble ’mere eller mindre’ for the rest of your day.
How come your didn’t teach the English the correct sequence of min of meer? wink

As usual you stick very much to the topic. I should too, but then I should have been designed differently, I’m afraid. I have this vlindershersenen. I hope you don’t mind all too much. You sit with the circuit breaker yourself ...
Are you intrigued by the Dutch?
Yes, I am. I was infected on my road trip a year ago – even as I hardly spoke a word with anyone – so, it’s a pleasure to make up for that with our conversation - why not take it high? - Adri. And the fascination sticks and I relive it all through each photo as I go. I’m unfaithful, though, I have an awful lot of fascinations.
But Rotterdam would be a good bet. Not too far, not too exotic but still sufficiently different.
No, you cannot decide for me Rotterdam or Dessau – I just appealed to your imagination. And I know you have a surprisingly well developed one, which you wouldn’t think when you are factual.
Being factual myself for a brief moment, I asked you if you had spent some time in Arnhem? You told me you had been to most places, so let me hear, please.

At some point when we were in the beginning of this thead, I came across these unflattering expressions about the Dutch invented by the English, and I remember making a disclamer in my post in the thread where it was discussed (not this one) in order not to put our budding friendship at risk should you see it. I looked for that website again. Didn't find it (it was a forum) but this one is even better.
It goes from very bad to bad to not-so-bad-at-all. And that’s encouraging.

To ’go Dutch’ in Danish – the act: to split the bill, or have it specified to each at an outing – has no adverse ring to it. On the contrary. We don’t say ’go Dutch’ though, we say it plainly and do just it. We ought to have an idiom for it.

Isn’t he great, Basil Faulty? And no, I’m not a ’Dutch Woman’
rolling eyes inflatable - tsk, tsk, tsk …
In fact I'm getting firmer all by myself by each fitness session.
I am the Danish one Mr Cleese met
- she who laughs very hard but doesn’t want to miss one single thing biggrin

You put up a good song which I – as usual – never heard before. You must think I'm illiterate - and you're right. I have a habit of looking up the lyrics. I’m not really hard at hearing, but songtexts was always hard for me to understand; taking it in with the eyes, reading, is my way - which is probably why I like learning by plitter-platter so much.
The ’Sky Pilot’ songtext is very meaningful and could provide ammunition for days and nights of discussion – so many issues – controversial ones – being touched upon.
And – as usual – more to come
Happened across this movie poster De rode schoenen/De røde sko


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Re: FC Language United

The Undutchables part 1 installment
- and a bit more
31% is very good, and I don’t think the light at the end of the tunnel is a train – unless you are being sent another trainload of materieal to be OCRed.

I'm pleased to hear that the new frontdesksomputer runs so well without any signs of cloggying up. My laptop is not sure it likes the most recent Windows update. It has an tendency to clog up, so I have to close all I have up for multitasking and reboot. Could be I just ask too much from it considered its capacity.

You fired back:
What would you do, if you were me, when you were sitting at the table of language and you were told that there are 20 ways to pronounce the letter 'r' in Dutch?
If I were you sitting across from me with 20 different pronunciations of an ’r’ – you would hear me say:
1. ’There is just one way – and then give you my plain ’Northern tribe’ version – just an ’r’ – no frills nor shrills nor rolls of tongue, no nothing.’
2. ’Will I be understood?’
Seems as if I’m on my way to getting less humble devilish

The Undutchables
I’m not that far yet, but I made a couple of observations.
It may be an imperfection of my sense of humor, but I don’t care all that much for the authors’ ’cloggy/cloggies’ word.
On the other hand I care a lot for you being described as koffie addicts. Something to relate to – as I’m sitting here with an uncharacteristic giant mug of tea.
I also like the assertion that you are ’always speaking your minds and ask what most foreigners consider to be probing questions about one’s personal life.’
I recall that at some point you asked me if I 'wanted to know everything'
’Their directness gives many the impression that they are rude and crude – attributes they prefer to call ”openness”. You can put it to a test by discussing intimate and schocking topics with them that you would never dare speak about with any other nationality.’ The authors claim that such discussions would be no more embarrassing or unusual to you than discussing the weather.
They underline the BICYCLE – which they should do. Never did I see a country this much designed to the needs and wishes of bicyclists. The bicycles look like mopeds in many ways. Lots of optional equipment. Windscreens, those mittens (in fact I had some as a child – they were really good but I was ashamed at how they looked) – many different ways to carry your shopping home. The sheer quantity of bicycles was mind-boggling to me – who comes from a fairly well developed bicyclist country myself.
Your relationship to water is well described and deserves all the admiration it can get. Also the fact that this relationship has made you world champions in water construction of any kind – which is probably a fine source of income from all over the world, also.
I went the entire stretch of the Deltawerken even as it was not planned but I was too tempted, and I said wow! incessantly. Kind of a ’Manhattan Project’ just bigger.
I saw a Dutch company establishing a tunnel for either waste or surface water under a roundabout near me. There must have been something special needed to be done, because we can dig a simple hole.

They devote a bit to windows and curtains (we discussed curtains at some point). I love your tall windows. They may be a consequence of the houses being deep an narrow with no possibility of light coming in at the facades (which they in effect are, as we talk gable houses) at attached houses. The rooms needs all the light they can get – therefore they should be as tall and wide as possible. Light and air is also supposed to keep tuberculosis away tongue

We have spionnetje, too.
most prominently in some towns in Southwest Jutland – and now we’re already on our way to the Netherlands.

You have a word: ’gezellig’ that min of meer comes close to ’gemütlich’ and which must mean something like does Danish ’hygge’ – a word we are very proud of has entered the vocabulary of many foreign languages. Therefore we regard ourselves champions of ’hygge’
– but perhaps you are better at it?
Ingredients: Dark, ugly weather outside – plitter platter regen an den zolderraam – fire (fireplace, woodburning stove, candles), a blanket, woolen socks, a book, a mandatory mug of hot cocoa and preferably a purring cat .
How do you create gezelligheid?

I think the reason why I don't really find the book's description of you comical is due to the fact that I find most things sensible .... cool

EDIT: The 'your' that should be 'you' - several instances of this blushing
Tried to mend the 'if you were me ....' part. Did not succeed 100%, but I hope - and think - I will be understood smile

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Former Member at Apr 2, 2018 10:11:01 AM]
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Re: FC Language United

For adriverhoef
- in case other crunchers would like to join the discussion of the peculiarities of languages.

Sayings installment - 'The Undutchables'
- on birds and cats
In 'The Unductchables' I read in a section about timekeeping - you Dutchmen are accused of wasting company hours on birthday celebrations, lengthy discussions about the validity of your boss' order that takes considerably longer than just executing it, and the like - and the authors claim that the Dutch form of
'The early bird catches the worm'
is
'The early bird is for the cat'

The book should be seen as joking with the Dutch characteristics, and I do, but still: You must have a saying in Dutch for
'The early bird catches the worm'
This may interest the miller's son, because in Danish the saying goes:
'First to mill gets milled first'
Actually it's so integrated in our language that any lengthy explanations can be substituted by for instance:
'The tickets will be availble on a first to mill basis'
and we can say '... runs after the first to mill principle'.

Now, let's look at
'The early bird is for the cat'.
I would believe you have this saying, but it cannot possibly replace
'The early bird catches the worm'
because the meaning is quite different if it is equivalent to it's Danish sister:
'He who saves/puts aside for the night saves/puts aside for the cat'
which is much prettier in Danish, because it rhymes:
'Den, der gemmer til natten
gemmer til katten'

- and it means something like 'the cat will come during the nighttime on her soft, silent paws and steal you savings or eat the leftover salmon' so you better spend or eat it at once.

I have several more issues, but shall limit myself to one:
They discuss 'telefoonbeantwoorderapparravrees' in such vivid detail than I begin to believe they have seen me prepare for a phone call. I'm not afraid of answering the phone, but calling - not people I know - but you know: The plumber, the phone company, your doctor .... I know everything can go wrong and rehearse the conversation beforehand and make all kinds of notes.
Sometimes a take a round trip of 100 km by car to settle the matter in person.
Sometimes when reading in this book I believe I'm a Dutchman who happens not to speak his native language.

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adriverhoef
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Re: FC Language United

Sayings installment - 'The Undutchables'
- on birds and cats
In 'The Unductchables' I read in a section about timekeeping - you Dutchmen are accused of wasting company hours on birthday celebrations, lengthy discussions about the validity of your boss' order that takes considerably longer than just executing it, and the like - and the authors claim that the Dutch form of
'The early bird catches the worm'
is
'The early bird is for the cat'
There is a saying 'een vroege vogel vangt veel wormen', literally meaning 'an early bird catches many worms'.
A well-known Dutch saying runs as follows: 'de morgenstond heeft goud in de mond' (the early morning carries gold in its mouth);
another saying reads: 'vroeg begonnen, veel gewonnen' (early started, much gained).
The book should be seen as joking with the Dutch characteristics, and I do, but still: You must have a saying in Dutch for
'The early bird catches the worm'
This may interest the miller's son, because in Danish the saying goes:
'First to mill gets milled first'
Yes, in Dutch we say: 'wie het eerst komt, die het eerst maalt' (whoever comes first, mills first), the fifo principle.

Now, let's look at
'The early bird is for the cat'.
I would believe you have this saying,
I can't find any actual proof that we do. There is one page and it isn't proof: http://actuamaasland.blogspot.nl/2017/07/vroege-vogel-voor-de-kat.html
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adriverhoef
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Re: FC Language United

Just learned this:
There was a survey done about the ugliest word - in the English language - and it is "moist".
And to say 'the most beautiful' in Dutch is 'het mooist'. Sounding pretty much the same.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25wqk9VDIHU ("These DUTCH WORDS sound FUNNY in other languages!")
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